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Some person named Xeno from www.crackbaby.com (which is about all I should have to say) writes:

Oh please... uif Microsoft gave a shit about community, it would start making it's products cross platform.

Uh, don't get the connection between cross platform and community.  Community can evolve around anything. 

- does Oracle work on various platforms? Yes. Does SQL Server? No.

Sure Oracle runs on various platforms.  Know how they do it?  It's interpreted code.  That means it's S-L-O-W.  That's why it needs to run on big iron that costs big bucks.

- does C++, C, PERL, JAVA, PHP work on different platforms? Yes.

Easy there scooter.  PERL and PHP are scripting languages with their own runtimes that sit on top of  various platforms.  JAVA runs in a Virtual Machine.  A VM  *is* a platform. 

Does C#? No (not until MONO gets past beta and Microsoft starts offering to work with the MONO community to maintain a standard).

Oh come on.  C#, CLI and CTS are all open standards.  Just because Microsoft doesn't help does not mean they harm. 

Also, does Microsoft open source products it no longer supports? Oh HELL No. How are they fostering community? I don't really see the community here that the open source advocates have. Apache has community, Linux has community. Hell, even java has community.

Why open source obsolete products and software?  Windows 95 was just delisted last year for crying out loud.  If you want the source to an OS that is going on 10 years old, you need to get checked out.  The open source “communities“ are more like waring factions.  There are at least 200 flavours of LINUX in the wild now.  Each with its own community.  Talk about fragmentation.

And in order to have community, a company must be willing to work with other companies to develop standards and then STICK to the industry standards rather than trying to make the industry bend to it's will merely because it has a dominance of the desktop market.

Do you live in a cave or something?  All the big boys in the industry are working together now.  Even Ballmer and McNealy have made nice.  Oracle just joined the Microsoft VSIP program.  Why don't you zealots ever pick on Sun and Java when it comes to “standards“?  Java is owned by Sun and controlled by McNealy.  Given a choice of megalomaniacal geeks, I'll take Gates and Ballmer over that wacko any day. 

This is why they are failing in the server market... amongst other reasons like instability, insecurity and lack of support.

Define failing.  Last I checked, Windows Server 2003 is selling like gangbusters and there has never been an OS more stable and secure.  Seriously, you really need to get out of the cave more often.

Dave
Just because I can...


 

posted on Saturday, June 5, 2004 8:49 PM

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# re: Crying Crackbaby... 6/5/2004 11:46 PM Xeno
Oh and if you want to check out community, you should read at this conference in Brazil where the government wants it's own IT community to develop and rather than send money to other countries and supporting their IT communities, they plan on keeping and encouiraging community growth of their own IT sector... by actively promoting open source.

http://www.webmink.net/2004/06/fisl-government-that-gets-it.htm

Quite honestly, you laugh when I say that Windows 95 should be open sourced but you watch. Sun is planning on open sourcing Solaris. Mac is based upon Free BSD. I think it's only a matter of time before Microsoft trys to get it's feet wet... and GPL but CPL would be equally cool. I know I SURE AS HELL would download the source and start tweaking it myself just for the hell of it.

# re: Crying Crackbaby... 6/6/2004 3:51 PM Mark Schmidt
People like that are blind with rage. I like this quote:

"Also, does Microsoft open source products it no longer supports? Oh HELL No. "

No? Really? What about WTL? Open source and on SourceForge no less! Also, has he checked gotdotnet workspaces? Lot's of MS sponsored projects there. Big community at work. Guys like that make me laugh.

# re: Crying Crackbaby... 6/6/2004 4:05 PM David Totzke
It's all that time in the cave that makes their eyes dim.

In addition to gotdotnet there is the International .NET Association and the MVP and RD programs to consider. Microsoft has gotten the message and whether their motives for investing in community are altruistic or not, we're all going to benefit greatly from it.

Dave


# re: Crying Crackbaby... 6/6/2004 4:17 PM Xeno
Ooooh. One minor thing. Open sourcing code to get people further interested in developing using Microsoft products which only work on one platform? Please. Microsoft is a multi billion dollar industry and all they can throw out is XML stuff... which is already an open language? Gee... I can see the hordes running to use it already.

Again, open sourcing is NOT for that new killer app; for instance, Flash should have never been open source nor should Photoshop. But because they have been around for so long and because they have not released a version for other platforms, the development community has been forced into creating their own. As a result, a free market arises because demand has not been met.

And a community develops as a result of developer demand not being met. A community which could have developed around those other applications had they acted a little quicker and been more focused on being cross platform.

As it has been said, community can develop around anything. Following the social network paradigm, a community is just a section of a larger community which is a portion of a larger one beyond that. The largest community has the largest amount of pull and sway and those smaller communities voices get genericized by the time they reach that larger community. Least common denominator you know. The idea is to be the community with the largest say. And that community is the one with the largest amount of control and understanding of the community.

And in the tech community, what is the largest community with the biggest say in how things get developed? Developers and IT managers. They are the ones working in ISP's trying to make their BSD web servers running Apache work with an Oracle DB and Cisco routers and send information to Windows desktops. It is a highly mixed environment in which no one company has all the answers.

So what do developers want? Standards. Standards so that they can stop working so hard to get all these tools to work together. Cross platform compliancy is a major one and nearly all vendors have addressed this problem... well all except one which thinks that it's monopoly on the desktop can someone give it a monopoly on the server side of things.

Unfortunately this isn't the case because Microsoft has isolated itself from much of the tech community. It wants to be the company telling everyone else how to develop, what to develop with and what applications it should be using.

So how does it embrace the development community again? By releasing a tiny XML app? Sorry... too little and too late. I say it would be an ingenius move on Microsofts part to open source Win95 for two reasons: it would show to the open source community a giant leap of faith on MS's part and show that they are not unable to change with the times. It would also show to companies that even though Microsoft will no longer support the platform that your legacy apps still run on, it will at least give you the ability to work on them yourself.

Finally, it could also reinvigorate an old product, create a hobbyist community around it, put a positive face on a company that has continually looked bad (especially to COO's that now realize that MS is blowing snot when it calls FOSS a cancer.

It's a win-win situation no matter how you slice it. MS can watch the project and even use improvements from it's open source community to improve it's own projects. They may even want to have more involvement and release the .NET framework for it.

It would be such a positive move on Microsofts part that it would quite just about every critic out there left. I personally would love to see NT open sourced but seriously doubt that would happen until after Longhorn came out.

Keep in mind that this isn't about the desktop... the is about developers; developers who more than likely work in mixed IT environments and will be asked to develop applications for the servers as well as the desktops (more than likely delivered via the web).

# re: Crying Crackbaby... 6/6/2004 4:21 PM Xeno
Yeah... .NET is so popular that Microsoft had to create it's own communities for it. Usually communities develop on their own. But not when Microsoft money is on the line. :)

And again, I point to the Tiobe index (tiobe.com). C# still appears to be sinking. Why use a java like virtual machine that only works on one platform when you can use Java and have your code work on all platforms? Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out guys... but maybe if you combine your IQ's, you'll be able to collectively figure it out. :)

Xeno
Just because Dave can't...


# re: Crying Crackbaby... 6/6/2004 5:26 PM David Totzke
Your ignorance is astounding. Let's assuming for the moment that you are right and MS is nothing but a bunch of money-grubbbing power-mad scumbags. If going open source on some tired old crap that's not generating dollar one anymore is such a great thing, why aren't they doing it? If it increases their popularity and givies them a better public image then sales are going to go up and they'll make more money.

Again, with Java, the Virual Machine **IS** a platform. And Write Once, Debug Everywhere is just not for me. The whole portability of code advantage is a manufactured one. Truth is, almost nobody needs it.

# re: Crying Crackbaby... 6/6/2004 5:39 PM Xeno
Hmmm... those are your words not mine. I believe my words were that Microsoft makes some greate stuff... but that they can't be the leader in everything.

I also believe I stated that open source is not the answer for everything and that innovative products should NEVER go open source... only old code that is no longer being supported. And if code is not ported to a platform where developers seriously want it, that they will work together to create a product to fill that void on their own.

As for portability of code, it's a tried and true methodology that keeps COO's, developers and IT managers coming back.

You don't have to believe it... just reads the stats on Linux, Apache, PHP, MySQL, GIMP, Open Office, etc. They are all gaining in popularity. Macromedia isplanning on releasing Flash for Linux, Real Networks released an open source player, Sun is open sourcing Solaris, etc etc. I think the trends speak for themselves.

You may think my ignorance astounding but your's is unbelievble. Still think Oracle is built using an interpretted language? LOL.

# re: Crying Crackbaby... 6/7/2004 12:36 PM Mark Schmidt
Hmmm...open source Win95? Actually, that would be pretty cool.

While you do make valid points Xeno (and you too David), I am also inclined to say that MS should be able to conduct business the way they want to conduct business (minus the whole monopoly fiasco they got themselves into). Just because they don't release the source code to their IP (and I can't blame them), doesn't make them evil in my mind.

Just my 2 cents.

# re: Crying Crackbaby... 6/7/2004 12:41 PM David Totzke
Finnally, the voice of reason.

# re: Crying Crackbaby... 6/7/2004 3:51 PM Xeno
They are as evil as the others is all I say. Perhaps a new form of evil but if the other companies had thought of some of the techniques that they use, I'd bet theyd be doing the same. And in fact, I'm sure they probably will.

But my point was they can't create community, they have to inspire it. You can gather a whole bunch of people togetehr and tell them to start talking about your products to others but that kind of community really doesn't inspire.

And MS doesn't create community, they ignore the IT community. I have a friend who works with a MS vendor and he runs Linux, Apache, and mySQL and he has Microsoft members coming into his office uninvited all the time to tell him that he is so wrong for using those products and that it should be 100% Microsoft. It got so bad that the company had to HIDE him. He tried to have conversations with these people and explain the reasons why he uses those products: cpst, stability, security, better community, cross platform compliancy, etc. And they sat their and just went 'But why not Microsoft products?' ... as if they were deaf or something.

Does that kind of thing build community? Is that the kind of tactic that is making people swarm to MS products?

Religious zealots cannot see past what they believe. Even if it's a cold hard fact that everyone but them can see. Do you think people like that encourage community or do you think they would alienate people? Hey, Hari Krishnas still have people joining after all? But do you think they are really influencing the majority to move in their direction?





# re: Crying Crackbaby... 2/14/2005 1:13 AM Jonas
Hey xeno im way out of the loop, what happened to crackbaby.com?

# re: Crying Crackbaby... 12/7/2005 8:03 AM mama
how does it affect a baby in the mothers womb

Comments have been closed on this topic.